Never crack the paint
Amazing guest this week – Joanna L. Johnson. She runs us through the issues with Hyundai/Kia oil leaks – the drain plug falls out. Sorry, I gave away the ending. Joanna explains what every car owner should do – save all of your service records and maybe get a prescription for Beta blockers. OK the last part is my idea. Related links below.
Also, this is a message for Kyle at Cruise, your car crashed again.
Hyundai/Kia Oil pan drain plug links:
https://www.aoca.org/– Automotive Oil Change Association
Plus – seat belts do the job once more in a near unavoidable crash in California:
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note: this is a machine generated transcript and may not be completely accurate. This is provided for convience and should not be used for attribution.
Anthony: Hi. Pardon. Miam. Covid. Alright. Listeners, are you ready for another round of your favorite podcast? Whose name we need to come up with a better one for? Yes, we are ready. Yay. Okay, great. So I wanna start off this week. Remember last week we talked about G GM Cruise and their fascinating CEO Kyle?
Well, they say, Hey, you don’t need to own a car. Cars can drive themselves. Cars, auto, autonomous vehicles are the safest things in the world. So literally days after we. We published that episode, Cruise car crashes into San Francisco Muni bus . Unbelievable. Like it missed a bus. This is not like something small.
It’s not like the time they ran over a fire hose. This is a bus. They ran into it. Thankfully no one was injured. There was no one in the car, no one driving the car either. I mean, you know. Hey Kyle, we love you.
Michael: Well, I mean, we’ve seen, we’ve seen a lot in the last week from even from Ford claiming that by 2025.
they’re going to be putting out trucks that you can fall asleep in while driving at 60 miles per hour, which we think is just absolute and utter insanity and it won’t happen. And it’s part of this future washing and pretending that better things are gonna happen really quickly in this area when I don’t think that’s true and that they’re, it’s, it’s functionally a sales tactic to get you to buy their vehicles now by promising you future technology, ala Tesla and, and, and their model, which is a little surprising from the, the main industry players.
Fred: Well, I wanna point out that you can fall asleep in your car is 60 miles an hour now, and it will continue driving. The only question is how long and that that’s something that they didn’t really address in their
Anthony: announce. . Yeah. And they haven’t released any data, of course, cuz it’s GM cruise. They haven’t said what happened, what went wrong, but I’m sure they’re blaming the bus.
It was the bus’s fault, clearly, because our software is amazing. But that’s it for GM Cruise this week. Now I’m gonna introduce, we have a, a special guest this week. I’m gonna introduce Joanna L Johnson. She is a regulatory attorney and the president of Johnson Policy Associates, a consulting firm with three decades of success, designing and implementing WIN-win strategies for public and private sector participants impacted by national and state environmental transportation, consumer protection, competition, and safety issues.
That is a mouthful. I’m not even done yet. Okay. She’s also, she’s also the longstanding policy advisor and former general counselor for the Automotive Oil Change Association, the National Trade Association for Serious Automotive Maintenance Professionals. Welcome, Joanna.
Joanna L Johnson: Thank you. And you did that without taking a breath in that first sentence.
That was impressive. and I’ve got
Anthony: Covid .
Michael: And so the reason we, we have Joanna today with us is that we are going to dive into defect petitions, which I’m, I’m sure we’ve mentioned in our work here, particularly around some of the Hyundai Kia fire stuff. It’s basically a little known process, not too well known process, although over the years it’s become a little more well known that allows any consumer to petition nitsa for determination of whether there’s a defect in a certain vehicle or line of vehicles.
And we’ve filed a number of petitions over the years. What you’re basically doing is saying, Hey, net. Will you open a formal defect investigation to look into a problem and maybe even find that there’s a recall because we believe there’s an unreasonable risk to safety here. And so Joanna has been a driving force behind a petition, a defect petition that’s currently pending before NHTSA’s Office of Defect Investigations.
And it involves, you know, a, a kind of a unique defect with a Oil drain plug that is popping out. And Hyundai is telling consumers one thing while consumers are being told another thing and they’re, you know, it’s, it’s a tough situation for consumers to be in. And it’s somewhat related to a lot of the major engine problems that we’ve seen with Hyundai Key in the past.
But I will let Joanna explain the situation to you much better than I could. .
Joanna L Johnson: Oh, well thank you very much Michael. Also very happy to be here. So thank you for inviting me and also on behalf of the association where we’re doing all this great work. This issue was something that we researched for three years before submitting the petition, even though we were sure about it right away, three years.
And the reason we waited is because this one is so bizarre as far as defects go. It is the history of automotive service. That if something like a drain plug falls out right after you’ve had service done, you assume that it’s the service provider you just do, and that’s across the aftermarket and dealers and everybody.
You just assume that’s true. What is different here in this case is that these drain plugs fall out after thousands of miles. Okay? Post-service, thousands of miles. It is unheard of. We had to basically survey the entire aftermarket to make sure. That’s why I took three years. We wanted to see all the complaints.
We wanted to talk to consumers. We checked all the boxes. We wanted to make sure we’re like, what is going on? Did you see leakage before? You know, was it leaking after service? Did you go back and have it checked? And again, what is unique about this is there, it pops out thousands of miles after service.
There’s no telltale leakage. There are no malfunction indicator lights that come on before, before this defect appears. That there appear to be two reasons for this, primary reasons for this. And the one would be that these oil drain pan assemblies come preassembled before they’re put on the cars, and they are painted together with a very thick black paint.
So the first problem here is that when you crack, you are cracking the paint to get that plug off. For the first oil change, generally you can’t even tell there’s a gasket on there. There is a factory gasket on there, and it tends to be camouflaged and painted onto the plug or the pan. Most people can’t see it.
So until we identified this, there were probably many plug outs that were. Attributed or attributable to the fact that there was double gasketing because responsible service providers always make sure there’s a gasket on. Now if you can’t see that there’s a gasket on there, then you’ve got a double gasket.
And I would current, anyone who’s interested in this subject to get a copy of our petition and look at it because we included a link to some fabulous DIYs doing the first oil change on a brand new Kia and they can’t find the gasket and they don’t realize it, but they are double gasketing. The car on video.
Anthony: Wait, so yeah, I’ll, I’ll talk him while Michael’s muted. So let me understand this cuz Michael and I were just talking about this minutes ago. So I bring my Hyundai to, you know, Jiffy Lube. I get it, oil changed and then I drive away 3000 miles later. There’s no hey oil light on saying, Hey, you’re getting loose oil.
Just the plug just falls out completely.
Joanna L Johnson: Yeah. . Yeah. And, and generally at highway speeds,
Anthony: like are there, is it missing threads as well or is it just, just those double gaskets?
Joanna L Johnson: It’s the two, the two reasons are, cuz I got the first one and you’re right, one is because potential double gas skiing, if you’re double gasketed, it’s just not gonna maintain a seal.
Eventually it’s gonna vibrate out. Okay. And the second reason is you, you’ve gotta consider what’s going on with these Hyundai Kia engines. Okay. So we have a, we have a whole range of defects that are going on. with these two and I, and I, I treat them as one, you know, because they share engine platforms, so I just treat it as Hyundai slash Kia, just both.
Sure. Right. So they have, they have connecting rod bearing clearance problems. Okay. I know that sounds, you know, Ooh, that’s very technical. What that, what that means is if you have that, then oil can, can bypass in the engine and get burned away. The engine oil is designed to, to loop around. It’s supposed to go around and around and around and lubricate your engine.
It’s not supposed to sneak out through different engine parts and burn. You don’t want it to burn. If your engine oil’s burning up, you’ve got a problem and you’re gonna have excessive oil consumption. You’re gonna get sludge, right. You’re gonna end up with knock, see, and connecting rod bearing problem gives you, ends up with knock, which is one of the most pervasive defects.
In these cars, knock is vibration. Vibration. So a think about that. You’ve got all this vibration on the road just from the regular roads. Everyone think about how, how much worse the roads have gotten in the past 10 years with all the crazy weather we’re having. The, the roads get bad, the potholes, you’re going up all those things.
So if that, if that drain plug isn’t perfectly set, vibrates out like this, they can’t see me. But you can, yeah. Yeah. starts to vibrate out and that’s why it most often comes out at highway speeds. Now one of the other problem is that the pan is cheap. That’s the easiest way to say it.
Anthony: The pan is cheap, seems cheap.
I mean, they’re painting on the pole. Like that’s, that’s, I had a landlord who did that with windows once.
Joanna L Johnson: Yeah. Tell you what, the only point at which we have not seen a plug out is before the first oil change. The only time we know for sure that that plug will not come out is before you crack the paint.
Michael: presumably it’s sealed in by the paint. Right? Exactly.
Anthony: Doesn’t, doesn’t Hyundai Kia have in their service guide after cracking this and refilling to repaint the pan? Because I mean, everyone should know that you repaint the bottom, you know it’s undercoating, right? It’s
Joanna L Johnson: obvious, right?
Michael: Yeah. Going to the, the defect here, you know, how long, you know, say your, your oil drain pan plug falls out while you’re driving.
I’m presuming that leads to a loss of oil in your engine. How? And, and the ultimate defect here and, and the unreasonable risk to safety is stalling. And it’s something that has long been seen as, as an unreasonable risk to safety because of the potential for crashes as the vehicles, if the vehicle stops in the middle of a highway if the vehicle’s trying to maneuver to get off the road.
I mean, we even have concerns about. Vehicles that are forced into limp home mode like we see with the Hyundai Kia. Mm-hmm. knock, censor detection, fix that. We’ve seen manufacturers recall vehicles because they’re going into limp home mode, and yet some manufacturers are using it to escape responsibility under the safety act by putting their vehicles into lymph pump mode.
So that’s a problem in itself, but the defect here is functionally stalling and all the associated safety risks there. Is there a pr You know, I guess it depends on how much oil you have in the ti in your vehicle at the time the plug falls out, how long it is before the vehicle is subject to this issue.
Could it be, you know, minutes, hours, the next time you drive? Minutes? Okay. , that’s, that’s really fast. And that’s, that’s certainly concerning if you’re, you know, actively driving, you don’t have time to get home and then, you know, start the car and or try to start the car and it doesn’t start, or that type of thing.
This is something that’s going to actively happen to you on the road, which qualifies it, you know, as that’s really the first step in any defect analysis is looking at whether the outcome here presents an unreasonable risk to safety. And, you know, it’s, this one has been pretty well documented, I would say It does.
Anthony: So what is Hyundai Kia’s response been? Because we’ve covered a lot of issues with their cars, with, from engine fires to the TikTok generation just stealing their cars easily. And with, I, I loved it with a TikTok, with the stealing gun. Their first response was, well, we made the alarm go off for 30 more seconds.
like, so what are they, what’s their suggestion
Joanna L Johnson: with this? Nothing so far. We filed the petition. July of last year. And we, we, we just keep updating it. Every time we get a new pack of cases we put it in there because that’s what it takes for Nitsa. By the way, I wanna plug that for your listeners.
Yes. Got to complain to Nitsa with specific details. Okay. You’ve got to, because that’s the thing that motivates them. As Michael said, this is a yet another, to me, shocking situation where you’ve got a stalling safety defect. If you can stall at highway speeds, that should go to the top. That should go to the top of the pile.
And they’re probably saying over there, well, wait a minute, we have these same cars are bursting into flames. Okay, so that’s the top of our pile. So, so maybe it’s second, maybe it’s second to bursting into flames. But I think stalling at highway speeds would be terrifying. And there’s something else I wanna just throw into the mix because this is the factor that actually got me to start doing major data scrapes.
On the complaints about Hyundai Kia. Notice this back in 20, well, 2019, okay? So when you stall out at highway speeds in a Hyundai Kia vehicle, usually the customer reports that the dealer told them there’s no diagnostic trouble code. Okay? This is not with the, this is not with a plug out defect. With a plug out defect, you’re gonna have a variety of things happening, and generally the engine’s going to seize.
It would be very rare if your engine survives a plug out at highway speeds, especially these, these GDI engines and how fast they consume oil. So but with all of the other problems, which I’m sure your listeners are, have experienced or probably familiar with hearing about them, there’s a, you know, a new defect notice every three months or so with all of them.
They do have stalling events and the most common. complaint is the customer takes to the dealer and the dealer says there’s no diagnostic code. Now listen you, that is a giant red flag. If your vehicle can stall at a highway speed and there is no diagnostic code popping up, that means whoever programed the brain of your car programmed it to not consider stalling at highway speeds, quote unquote trouble.
Okay? Now I’m really worried about that. Remember the brains of these cars, they’re not born, they’re programmed, and the same thing happened. I just wanna point this out. People think I’m just on about Hyundai Kia Ford power shift. Remember the Ford power shift fiasco? Yeah. With the fiesta and the focus.
Yes. The same complaint pattern happened with them stalling out in traffic. and the automaker reported no diagnostic trouble code. Okay. When What I notice now is when you see that you need to be seriously worried because they considered this when they were programming the car.
Michael: And those were those transmissions in the forge that were problematic.
Right. They were Exactly. They were basically hesitating and you were hitting the gas and nothing was happening and cars were coming at you and you were in the middle of an intersection. That type
Joanna L Johnson: of scenario. Exactly. So that meant the car was programmed to consider that behavior normal. No trouble code.
Fred: Joanna, who determines what the trouble codes are in any particular vehicle? Is that complete up to the discretion of the manufacturer or are there any regulations that apply?
Joanna L Johnson: That’s a great question actually, and I’m looking into that cause I wanna make sure that we’ve got that straight. There are some standard trouble codes that all of the automakers tend to do, and then each automaker might have some.
individual ones for themselves. And one of the ones that I’ve just started looking up last week is the, is the general, like as in all of the automakers are supposed to have it excessive engine oil consumption code. And why we never ever see that code come up in the complaints. How odd in the Hyundai Kia complaints not to see that when it is the number one problem those cars have, that lead to it leads to all of the other events.
So whether it’s the oil is sneaking past that extra rod bearing clearance or the piston ring defect, these are also pending class actions. Everyone can get a copy of those as well. Whether it, you know, it’s one of those things we, we have the technical service bulletins. available and they’re available to the public.
By the way, anytime you wanna see this stuff, I also wanna plug NI’s website, NI’s general recall website. It doesn’t seem like that’d be a place where you would get technical service bulletins, but you can’t just go to, you know, nitsa, I believe it’s just nitsa dot recall slash gov. Plug in your VIN or your model and it’ll take you to a panel that’ll give you an option to look up defects, complaints, investigations and manufacturers communications.
And you look up those tsb, they’re for Hyundai Kia. They’re excessive oil consumption. TSB cover all the engines they have. I mean it’s a total of what, see it’s 2 71. They havet added up lately cuz they keep going up 2 71 271 models for Hyundai? Or is it 316? One of theirs is 316 and one’s 2 71. I’ll give ’em the benefit of the doubt.
We’ll do the 2 71. So, and then you add on the 68 for Kia. That’s 339 models. an excessive oil consumption. It’s all the engines.
Michael: And we, and we’ll have a list of these up on our website Yeah. When we, or as many as we can nail down, because it’s a lot, it’s really hard. Pegging and nailing down every model that’s covered by recalls, especially ones that are, are by defects.
Especially one that’s this broad and covers so many different engines. Mm-hmm. ,
Anthony: I would just wanna point out for listeners who think autonomous vehicles are the way of the future, the engineers that left out the stalling code, same engineers writing your self-driving car software, just putting it out there.
Okay. They’ve got it now
Michael: figured out and we, we’ve seen oil sludge issues in the industry for decades now. Way before I started working at the center, there were problems and Chryslers and a lot of other models. So it’s not as though they’re unaware of, of these type of issues. And it would make a lot of sense to have these type of codes so that engines aren’t damaged and destroyed.
It makes you wonder why they’re not in place. .
Anthony: So right now for the consumers, when this happens, you know, to them and their engine is essentially destroyed, what’s their, what’s their recourse? Buy a new engine, scrap the car.
Joanna L Johnson: Like for me, is that for me? Okay, so there’s a couple of things. Actually the first thing I’d like to tell people is what to do before, hopefully it won’t happen to you, but what to do now before, I wanna do the before first, if that’s okay.
Michael: quick. . Yeah, I say that’s the thing I was gonna ask too. Is there anything they can do to maybe prevent the plug from ever falling out in the first place? ?
Joanna L Johnson: Well, no, . Okay. Okay. No, I can’t, no, I, that I cannot guarantee. But there are some things they can certainly avoid. Okay. The number one thing for, for Hyundai Kia’s, and this is with or without, with or without the issue with the drain plugs, this is considering all the problems that they have, especially excessive oil consumption.
If you have Hyundai Kia. Use the severe service interval. That’s the short one. Okay. They’ve bought, Kia has a TSB that two 19 where they admit that many, if not most Kia customers and I’m quoting, are driving severe and the dealers are supposed to be having a sit down with all the customers and get their oil change minder set properly to severe.
I just did just through my company, I did a study last week and I’m, I’m still just polishing off that study. So if your listeners are interested in that, they’ll, they’ll be able to get a copy of it on who rejects your warranty claim because you don’t have every single oil change receipt from the beginning of time.
Who does that? And I, all I do is when I do these studies, by the way, I just study oil change receipt. I don’t go after any make, I don’t go after any automaker. I just, I just study the subject. So I subject oil change receipts and maintenance records. Okay? 81% of all of the cases where the automaker says, if you can’t show every oil change receipt for the timing that you needed for the interval, you needed, if you can’t show that from back to the beginning of time, the warranty’s not covered.
Even if you’re, you’ve got a recall engine. Even if, who, who,
Anthony: who keeps these things, no
Joanna L Johnson: one does all of them. And what if you’re a do-it-yourselfer, right? There are many complaints of do-it-yourselfers. They still have a right to do their own service if they want to. Well, you’d better keep all of your receipts from what you bought at, you know, at the auto parts store.
You better keep the receipts for the oil and the filters and all the stuff you did and take a, take a timestamp photo of yourself doing the service, you know, under the thing. Here I am on this date. I did it. 81%. They’re all Hyundai Kia. And there were only five or six automakers that had any complaints on that.
And there’s, and of all of the automakers that are reflected on those complaints, 83% of the automakers had zero complaints of this. This is how, this is how unusual the situation is. So I’m giving all that information to underscore, get your service done, because it will be a warranty wrangling nightmare for you if you don’t have all the receipts.
You’ve just got to do it. And you should assume that you have the severe service interval because of all the excessive oil consumption problems with these cars. That’s number one,
Fred: to be clear. You should always get maintenance done. Sure. But you, when you talk about saving your receipts the timestamping.
Events, all that, that’s only in relation to Hyundai vehicles, right? It’s it’s only their vehicles that have got this bad service problem. Is that correct?
Joanna L Johnson: Well, it’s, it’s underscored for Hyundai Kia. Hyundai Kia right now is the, in the studies that I’m doing as the worst offender in terms of how they treat people.
But with any, any vehicle, make sure that you get your maintenance done because you see the warranty is a contract. It’s a contract between you and the car company. And as a basic principle, the, the automaker is not wrong to insist that you maintain the car. It’s not their fault if you didn’t change your oil for 20,000 miles.
Okay? That is actually not their fault. They set the intervals in the owner’s manual and the maintenance, or sometimes they have a separate. Maintenance document, they set the intervals and you do have to meet them. So you know, given that we’re seeing more problems versus less problems lately I would tell everybody, keep your receipts, keep that.
Fred: if you have all your maintenance done at a dealer, is it also important to keep your receipts or are their service records
Joanna L Johnson: adequate? Great question, Fred. You keep your receipts, even if it’s a dealer. Even if it’s a dealer, you cannot be sure, don’t think that they’ve got you, like in their database someplace, and that when you have your problem, you’re gonna go to them and they’re gonna be like, yep, it’s in our, it’s not in their best interest to clear you.
Something I just, this is a good thing to point out right now, is that the relationship between the dealers and the automakers is not fabulous. and the dealers are all over the states. Trying to strengthen their position against the automakers. Okay, so when you go in, you’ve got a problem with your engine.
And say it’s even a, it’s an, it’s a clear defect that’s, that is reflected in a, in an official recall through Nitsa. Even that moment when you take it in, the dealer is probably gonna have to fight with the automaker to get reimbursed for your stuff. And so when the dealers and the automakers have to have these fights over, who’s gonna get what, it then becomes extra pressure on the dealer.
So if they can toss your case because you didn’t get the oil changed for the last seven years, they’re going to do it because it is a headache. I would encourage anybody, in fact, before you buy a new car to peruse. , the t the the master document, which is updated all the time, and it’s available to the public.
I know this sounds super dry, but you know what is not dry? Stalling out on a highway. Okay. So like go get the master document before you buy a car and read the TSVs and you see what is going back and forth between the automakers and the dealers. And it’ll give you a really good idea of whether it’s gonna be smooth sailing for a particular car.
Michael: And we’ve talked to a, a lot of consumers. Go ahead Fred.
Fred: Sorry. Another question though when this happens, you’re dumping five quarts of slippery oil onto the highway. Is there any history of other vehicles being involved in crashes or hazardous operation due to the oil being spilled on the
Joanna L Johnson: highway?
That’s a great question. That is actually our next step because this is, it is dangerous, number one, which you just explained. It is very dangerous. It is also an environmental disaster. , it only takes one quart, one quart of used oil to contaminate an entire river and entire lake. I mean, it’s, everybody knows that the EPAs, you dump it, you drink it program.
So that’s our next step is to pressure them from, from that side.
Fred: Another question that pops into my head. Is there something special about these oil, these plugs? I mean, I’ve, I’ve changed a lot of oil. It’s just a, a threaded stutter with a f flange on the end and a, and a resilient seal in between.
Is there anything special about these Hyundai items they made from titanium with Donna titanium or who knows
Joanna L Johnson: what they Well, they appear to be made from stamped steel, which is cheap. That’s about the cheapest way you can do it. And when you we’ve, you know, obviously bought the, the factory parts so we could take a good look at ’em.
And what’s behind the plug, like what the plug is screwing into is got this little, it’s almost like cardboard. , it’s almost, it, it’s this very cheap piece behind it that it screws into. We also have evidence and we’ve been collecting evidence on the pans, cracking the pans sometimes just give way.
There’s, think about the total circumstances here. I think you need the complete package. If you had really efficient, consistent engines, so you weren’t getting high pressure, you weren’t getting extra heat, you weren’t getting all that extra vibration, maybe, you know, without the double gasketing, maybe the plugs wouldn’t come out.
But that’s not the, that’s not the case. That’s not what we have here. I mean, keep in mind that this is the same, same the same two companies, Hyundai Kia, that have a construction equipment grade filter requirement. For all of their cars. Why does a little sedan need an oil filter that has a canister burst pressure of 600 psi.
Okay. When all of its other like cars by other automakers with engines of the same size, only needs an oil filter with a 240 PSI burst pressure. Wait, so they’re
Anthony: using the same oil filters that are in bulldozers and excavators? Yes. .
Michael: And they’re requiring, are they requiring consumers to use those as well when they replace their, when they change their oil?
Joanna L Johnson: Yes, they do. And it’s not in the owner’s manual,
Michael: so you wouldn’t even know. You would, you would buy your car and you would go to an independent oil change shop, maybe because your Kia dealer’s 400 miles away and you live in Montana. Right. And you’re not even going to know about the problem. ?
Joanna L Johnson: No. With
Anthony: some local shop, even store items like that cuz they’re not typically not servicing, you know, Volvo D 90, you know, excavators
Michael: or something.
Well they, they would give you the, they’ll give you the normal aftermarket oil filter and then your oil pressure in your engine, I assume is going to blow the top off that thing. And you’re gonna start having some of the problems we’ve seen. Yeah.
Joanna L Johnson: Unless they’re members of the automotive Oil change association.
Okay. Because the professionals know, they know and they use, and they, and also aftermarket oil filter manufacturers know. And so now for their equivalent of the Hyundai KIA filter, it’s rated to 600, you know, PSI burst pressure. But when, you know, when that tsb we challenged a T SB for, for Hyundai Kia, both of them had one and all models T SB back in 2012.
It said you can, you know, you’ve got to use. a dealer, I mean, excuse me, an automaker brand oil filter. It didn’t say you need to use a filter that has a canister burst pressure of 600 psi. It said, if a car comes in and it’s, you know, knocking, whistling, you know, doing all the things that the theta two defective engine did, if it’s doing any of those things and it has an aftermarket filter on it, it’s because of the aftermarket filter.
That’s the problem. And so this is not a warranty repair. You get rid of that and you must use an OEM filter. And of course that’s a, that’s a roundabout Magnuson Loss Warranty Act violation.
Michael: It is. They’re Gaslighting America .
Joanna L Johnson: It’s a yes. It’s a roundabout because what they’re saying is you don’t do a diagnostic on that engine.
You see an aftermarket part, and you just assume it’s the aftermarket part and you have to use a proprietary. Part, and then you charge the customer for that proprietary part. And of course we did challenge this to the Federal Trade Commission and they did nothing about it. And if they had done something about it, then we would’ve had at least one excuse that Hyundai Kia was using for years before the Theta two engine class action defect class action.
Michael: that was, that was one of the, so long ago. That was 2012. Right? Right. So that you would’ve, that could have avoided a ton of consumer nightmares that have taken place.
Joanna L Johnson: Oh, so many. And they never published the fact that it was a 600 PSI burst pressure. I know I’ve said that like five times now. But this is a big deal.
It is unheard of in cars of that size to use to require a filter like that. And so this is a long way to answer Fred’s question, but that’s the pro, there is extreme pressure going on with these cars. Extreme pressure and vibration and heat. was that
Michael: original equipment on those vehicles, was it that type of filter?
Or were they putting the regular one on there and then they started seeing problems with their engine design and they switched?
Joanna L Johnson: Yes. Yes. When I talked to the oil filter manufacturers, that’s what I was, that’s what I asked them. I’m like, wait a minute. Was it from go? Because they have to, because the, the manufacturers have to have the aftermarket parts ready when the cars roll out.
Right. They have to be ready within you know, a month or so. They have to be ready. And since Hyundai Kia didn’t notify anybody about what was going on with that filter, they of course made filters that were for normal engines of that size. And then the filter was changing. And so what the information that I have is that even Hyundai Kia was upping and upping and upping and upping the birth pressure over time
Michael: to try to find something that could control the terrible design they put in that way.
Okay, Joanna. I just, I,
Fred: I’m sorry, I, I just checked our friends at Amazon and I looked for Hyundai Oil filters and I noticed a listing here for K end to end premium oil filter protect your engine. So what we’ve just been discussing says that’s probably going to create problems for your car. Is there any, has Amazon got any liability here or are they, because they’re essentially selling incompatible oil filters under the heading of Hyundai Hyundai Kia?
Or is that, you know, are they immune from any response to that?
Joanna L Johnson: Well, that’s a very interesting question. We should probably get a representative from the Auto Care Association here to talk about that side of it. That’s a little bit outside of my expertise here. Autocare Association represents the manufacturers, so I would really encourage you to, to have that, have, like, have another conversation about this with the people who are the, to true experts in that subject.
But there’s basic, there’s basic what you’d say, you know, unfair and deceptive practices that do apply to all retailers. I don’t know how the, the selling contracts are worded between Amazon and retailers who sell through Amazon. I don’t know what I, there’s a, somehow I suspect that Amazon will find a way to make it the, you know, the underlying seller’s problem.
Michael: There are a lot of problems in that area on Amazon going beyond oil filters too. I mean, motorcycle helmets and a lot of child seats and a lot of things that are non-compliant with American law can be bought online and shipped to America for use here. And so Nitsa has, that’s been a headache for nits a’s compliance office, I know, for many years now.
So, good question. And also going back to the ftc, you know, we filed a petition on a certain auto company that was advertising its vehicles as fully self-driving five, six years ago before, you know, a dozen or more people have died in them. And FTC had a similar response, which was nothing. So we’ve discovered over the past 20 years, the FTC.
infrequently helpful too on safety issues and on consumer deception issues when it comes to cars. It’s been, it’s been difficult to get them engaged on Tesla, and so I can see how they might have been, it might have been even more difficult to get them engaged on a, on an oil issue that they would probably see is outside of their per normal purview.
Joanna L Johnson: Indeed. Is it, is it okay if I go back for a second? I didn’t answer all of Anthony’s question. I just gave him one thing. The the preface before you have a problem, just make sure that you’re maintaining the heck outta your car and that you keep all the receipts. But the other thing is if this situation is, is happening to you and most Hyundai I Kia customers will end up taking their cars back to the dealer because the warranties are so long.
Okay? So generally you’ll take it. back there. It’s very important to get whatever their decision is in writing. Now, if they’re taking care of you, which by the way there must be some g some good Hyundai Kela deal deals out there, just percentages. If you just play the percentages of complaints, there must be some good ones out there.
And they’re just taking care of their people and their lives must, I mean, the, the dealer’s lives must be hell. Because having, I’ve, you know, having read like all of their TSB and what it’s like for them to go back and forth with the automaker, it must be really tough for the good ones. They’re stuck in the middle.
Joanna L Johnson: yeah, they’re so stuck in the middle. But for everyone else that’s not having a, having a good experience, you’ve got to insist if they are giving you some kind of warranty denial. or if they’re saying that the customer has to pay for even a basic diagnostic or this or that, or we’re not going to do this without you paying for everything because you don’t have your, your maintenance receipts back to the beginning of time.
Get it in writing from them. Make them put it in writing. What typically happens is you go in you might even be in a, in a state of trauma because if your car stalled out at highway speeds and you just managed to get to the side of the road, and, and I I’m saying this from having red, I mean it thousands of these complaints, so you made it to the side of the road.
You are somewhat traumatized at that point, except if you are, you know, maybe you’re an amateur race car driver. You’re a very cool customer, but for everybody, , that’s a big deal. Your heart’s racing. You, you know, you don’t know what happened. Also, you need your car. The average person needs their car to make their life work.
So the two things that just happened is your life were at risk. Your life was just at risk, and now what’s gonna happen with your car? How are you even gonna get your car to the next place? There’s all these questions, it’s traumatizing. So usually that’s gonna happen like that. And then you will go to the dealer because the warranty is so long.
So when you get there, and especially between there and the dealer, you’ve got to breathe. You have got to breathe. You have got to slow your heart rate down. And this is not the advice you were expecting, but I promise you that if you go into the dealer experience fully, like 100% traumatized, it’s gonna be bad.
You may get taken advantage of. , you may just serve yourself up to get taken advantage of if you’re traumatized. And you may be further traumatized when they take your car in, if they come back out and tell you, well, I don’t know. Are you sure that happened? Because there’s no diagnostic code. I don’t know.
I mean, there’s no trouble codes here. Are you sure that just happened to you now? You know it happened to you, so now you’re gonna have like all that extra trauma of like, you wanna be. I’m not, I’m telling the truth. Why don’t you believe me? This is dangerous for me. I don’t wanna take this car out. Now I gotta go pick my kids up from soccer practice.
You know, you see how this is whole, the whole thing is traumatizing. So that’s why I’m saying you’ve gotta breathe. You’ve got to get your heart rate down. They are, you know, just slow it down and get everything in writing and assume that you are going to need to figure out how to get a ride. , and that’s not, again, this is not a normal experience, I’m just saying with this particular automaker, you’ve gotta assume that you need to get ready for that.
Get yourself prepared, because most of the complaints will tell you that they’re not gonna have a ride ready for you, that they’re not gonna have a loaner ready for you. That even if they acknowledge that you need to have an engine replacement, there will not be an engine ready for you. Okay? They don’t have enough engines to go around for these situations.
So you need to know that this is a really tough spot and keep breathing and get your documentation because you can make the most effective defense for yourself with documentation from them. They want documentation from you. You tell ’em you want it in writing. Anything they’re telling you, they wanna tell you.
It’s because. A non-deal service. The car, get that in writing. It’s not enough to have the, the, you know, the service writer across the desk from you saying it’s this, it’s that. It’s that you try to challenge that you, if you get through arbitration, you don’t get what you want in our, the mandatory arbitration.
And then you wanna take ’em to small claims and you say, well, this is what the service writer told me. And then the dealer rep is there saying, just shaking their head going, no, no, that’s not what happened. It wasn’t like that at all. This person is, you know, I don’t know, I don’t know what was going on that day with that person.
Michael: Gotta get in writing. Go ahead Fred.
Fred: Joanna. So, okay. I’m a, I’m a perfect consumer. I’ve got all these receipts for the oil change in my hand. I’ve been very diligent about, , what do I do with that? Do I go into the dealer and say, come on, fix it because I got these receipts. Do I go to the A C L U? Do I ask for the regional service manager?
What do I do with, with this extensive documentation I’ve got in my hand?
Joanna L Johnson: Okay, well, again, in, if we are, if we’re talking about any of the cases, it’s not just necessarily the plug out defect, any of the defects where you stall out, so you’ve been towed. Okay? That, that’s the comment. Okay? So you’ve been towed and you have your documentation with you.
So you prove that you’ll, you’ll go through that process with them. They’ll ask, they’ll ask for your documentation, and then you’ll prove that. And then if you’re, you know, if you’re in a, if you’re in a good situation, if you’re in a and with honest people they’re gonna deal with it. They’re gonna deal with it, then I’m gonna tell you you need an engine replacement.
because you probably do, I mean, in any of these situations you probably do need an engine replacement. And it may be weeks or months before they can even get you an engine. So they’re gonna have to work out a loaner for you, and that’s your best case scenario when this happens.
Michael: Yeah. You’re covered under warranty in that scenario, right?
Joanna L Johnson: Yeah. You’ve got the warranty and so you’re covered and that’s what they’ll do. Now, if it’s one of these worst case scenarios, you’ll go in and even if you have your maintenance receipts, they might try to say to you, well, but you have to pay us anywhere. I’ve seen anywhere from $600 to 2000 plus dollars for diagnostics and tear down, you have to pay us for that.
You know, and you’re not supposed to pay for that. If you’re under warranty you’re not supposed to do that. And you are. recourse. Unfortunately, since the advent of mandatory arbitration in vehicle purchase contracts and leasing contracts, you are required to go through the system. If you are, if you have a dispute about whether or not the car, if the car is the problem then you have to go through that process and it’s supposed to take place.
The whole thing is supposed to be started and done little over a month before you get to the mm-hmm. Yeah. Before you get to the end. And you know, I wrote about this extensively in as, a’s comments to the FTC when they did the mixing the fix process. Mm-hmm. After all the research I did, I said, you know, this, what you’ve got going on here with the, it’s basically the better Business Bureau that handles it, their auto line.
And this is not a, not get better business bureau. This is the way the system is set up. So basically you’ve got a system where people are in a vacuum now, they’re in a vacuum the minute this happens, and no matter how they’ve been treated, no matter how obvious it is, they’re gonna go through this process for maybe 40 days.
The average person cannot afford a $500 emergency in any given month. So how are they supposed to get transportation and frequently loaners aren’t, aren’t made available, or they have to pay what are they, you know, they’re, what are they supposed to do between now and then? You have to
Michael: go through that process.
And they’re just waiting for a decision on whether they’re covered under warranty. That’s right. And that doesn’t even include, you know, getting the engine to the dealership and installing it, which could take another month or two, depending on the global supply chain,
Joanna L Johnson: or six months. Yeah, there are, this is a well-known problem that there are.
Michael: so that becomes $3,000 problem just in acquiring transportations, right? Or a, a separate car if you’re not covered in addition to the fact that you, I mean, it’s these engines we’ve, you know, just continually seen problems with ’em, you know, that we’re going back to the, the fire issues that we’ve filed, petition on, the oil, all of that’s been related.
It’s all related to a, a poor design in these engines, and we’ve continued to see complaints come in from consumers who are just going through the ringer on these things. They buy the car, they still owe $10,000 on it, so they think they need to get an engine replacement. But I’m at the point with many of them when they, when they complained at the center where I, I started saying, you need to walk away from this, this engine, you know, it’s, , it’s, you know, and then, then that raises a whole other set of questions, well, do I sell this car on to another person who’s going to experience the problem too?
You know, I’ve had Hyundai and key owners reach out to try to find services that will part their car out for them and sell it in pieces versus selling it whole to another human. And unfortunately those are incredibly difficult to find if they exist at all, because most people who get a whole car are going to try to sell the whole car.
So it’s, this is a really, really, really bad area for consumers. And you know, even if NITSA does find that there is a defect in the oil drain pan assembly here, they’re going to, the recall will probably be something that makes the plug fit better and it won’t really address again, this overall bad engine design that’s putting consumers out.
So I just, I. Hyundai and Kia have been playing, you know, they’ve been patching up holes along the way and protecting, you know, their profit margins as much as possible when what they probably should have done is just completely redesigned their engines in 2013 and we all could have avoided this nightmare.
And what are they
Anthony: replacing the engines with? So I get in there, I need a new engine. Are they basically just giving a new copy of the same crappy. Yep. Oh my God. Okay, so listeners, so you need to keep all of your service records stuff them in your glove compartment. And I didn’t realize this cuz like I have, my car is supposed to get every 5,000 miles supposed to get service and I’m like, I’m not gonna bring it in then all that’s ridiculous.
Like, don’t, it doesn’t need to have, you know, the air rotate and it’s tires. Were 5,000 miles. I’ll, I’ll do it
Michael: Googling. How long can I go without an oil
Anthony: change? Well, yeah, but now I’m like, okay, I have to go in every 5,000 miles. I’m gonna ask the dealership, Hey, gimme a copy of all my past service records to look at me sideways.
But hopefully they’ll do it. I’m gonna contact my doctor and get a prescription for beta blockers. So if this ever does happen, I can become like Mario Andretti and just be very calm and relaxed. This is, this is awful. I mean, and this is, it pretty much looks like every car they’ve made since what, 20 12, 20 13.
Yeah. Like there’s, and, and, okay, so Michael went through all of NHTSA’s recalls and, and we found since there was anything even remotely similar to this oil plug thing, he found one from, what was it? It was BMW in like 2003. And it was, you know, it was basically uncertain passenger vehicles. The drain plug wasn’t, didn’t have enough torque.
Bring it into the dealership and they’ll test the torque, which is nonsense. They just went in there and, you know, and a mechanic was just like crank and, oh yeah, we didn’t tighten it enough. You know, I’m gonna measure the torque on this bolt, but, but this always comes down to, it seems like what all the majority of recalls and all these issues come down to is somebody trying to save what, four or 5 cents on a part like this?
Michael: You know, I think, so think in this case, I think that, I think in this case, you know, they were trying to design more efficient and more powerful engines and. , they didn’t get it right. You know, and, and instead of turning that around and fixing it, when they started to see problems that were requiring them to put bulldozer oil filters on these cars, and it’s, it should have been clear to them at that point that this path wasn’t sustainable as far as, you know, the outcomes it was gonna create for consumers.
But they forged on through and kept making engines that have this problem for what, another eight, nine years? Maybe. They’re, they’re still making them. We’re not, I’m not totally sure on that .
Joanna L Johnson: Well, there is a theta three now.
Michael: That’s just scary.
Joanna L Johnson: Well, and another, you know, another thing to that just, you know, adds to the mess is that, that, you know, one of the reasons they could have gotten cheaper about the oil drain pan, you know, making a cheap stamp steel is that it’s lighter.
And one of the things that vehicle manufacturers did in response to Clean Air Act requirements, right? Fuel economy, right fuel economy, was to see how light, now what anything they could make lighter, because it affects the entire equation. You gotta picture a very large algebraic equation. Yeah. For their entire fleet.
And if you wanna sell heavy SUVs and trucks, then you, you have to lighten anything. You can lighten. And they, they probably did, they probably got a 0.01 into that equation for these lighter, cheaper oil drain pan and, you know, an oil drain, pans and plugs, and they’re plugs and they’re gaskets. These are maintenance items, these are replacement items.
When they took this, this, these, here are these telltale signs again, of there’s a problem here. And I have been studying their, their owner’s manuals, everything about them. Once I saw, seriously, once I saw all the distressed customers, these are the most traumatized complaints of anything that goes into nitsa.
These people are, they are begging, they are traumatized. They give really detailed descriptions of what it’s like to have this happen to them and how badly they were treated. Once I saw that, I’m like, that’s it. I’m gonna dig up everything on this company. So I looked at their owner’s manuals after I believe it’s, and I even have it in the complaints, it’s around 2008, 2009.
They remove oil change information from their owner’s manuals. See, once upon a time, one of the most common do-it-yourselfer maintenance items, and it sh and it should be. is an oil change. This is basic. This is basic. You’ve gotta have enough oil in a combustion engine vehicle or it’s dangerous, so do it.
Yourselfers used to do this themselves. I mean, really until the advent of the, of the fast loop industry, which I represent, full disclosure, but until that happened most people would do their own. And so the information on how to do an oil change was standard in owner’s manuals, it is still standard in most owner’s manuals, but not Hyundai Kia, they used to have all the information.
It would say, you need this much oil. You need this much torque pressure on the drain plug. That’s a very important point, right? Because if you don’t do enough, it’s too loose. If you do too much, you ruin the threads. This is critical information. Well, right about the time we start having all these engine problems, right before that happens, they take all that info out.
and they don’t tell you, again, I’ve said this before, but it bears repeating and they never ever tell the customer that the oil filter they have to use has a 600 PSI canister burst pressure. I mean, how could you have, how could you have a requirement like that, which is so abnormal, so unusual, and, and it’s a maintenance item and you don’t put it in the owner’s manual.
There are still a lot of do-it-yourselfers out there. Okay? And they have a federal right to not use an OEM to spend all the extra money for an OEM part. They have a right to choose a competing part, but the manual doesn’t, e doesn’t warn them, doesn’t say anything, doesn’t talk about the torque pressure.
And believe me, on this oil drain plug issue, I’ve seen do it yourself or is in the consumer forms talking about, well, should I put extra pressure on it? , would that make a difference? And I know that was a question here too. Is there anything you can do to stop that thing from falling out? Super believe.
And the answer is no. , you, no. If you, if you do extra, it doesn’t stop it and you ruin the threads. Right. And, and here’s another thing I haven’t mentioned yet. The professional service industry is switching to extraction only for Hyundai Kias. In fact, some dealers, according to consumer complaints, are even switching to extraction only.
Nobody wants to touch that plug. Let mean extraction. Only Extraction means you go from the top, you go through the engine and stuck out the oil. And you don’t even touch
Anthony: the plug. You don’t go near the plug. Wow. Wow. You know, the plugs are advanced technology. We haven’t, we’ve only had these for a couple weeks.
Joanna L Johnson: I know, I know. I, and so they extract it and we already have, we already have complaints where the extraction only the plug still falls out.
Michael: Unbelievable. What’s so, so this is extraction only that suggests that drain plugs may be a thing of the past,
Joanna L Johnson: right? Well, maybe we’ll just have to, I mean, between the drain plugs and the, the, the, now the skid plates, they’re adding all kinds of skid plates on.
This is a across, this is a cross mix. It’s not just Sunday canvas. Right. And it’s hard to access. Very difficult. So you put those two things together, maybe everybody will, so never crack the paint, you know? I mean, maybe they’ll just, maybe that will be the TSB that they put out. Extraction only on these cars don’t,
Michael: but that would be the end of the home repair.
Right? Doesn’t that functionally eliminate the ability of someone to change their own oil? Unless they
Joanna L Johnson: have, well, if they’re having car, they could buy the equipment. , they could buy the extraction equipment.
Michael: That sounds, that sounds expensive. .
Joanna L Johnson: I haven’t priced it, but, you know, if, if the industry switches to that, somebody will make it.
Somebody will make it available. .
Michael: So we’ve got a couple other things that we’re, that kind of circling this whole conversation. I mean, we won’t even dive into, since we’ve already talked about the other, you know, 5,000 plus consumers whose Hyundai Kias went up in flames on the side of the road. That’s been a problem.
That was a supposedly addressed by a software knock sensor recall, but I don’t have just an incredible amount of faith in the ability of that recall to solve things. It’s functionally another Dodge by Hyundai and Kia getting around the fact that the real defect here is the engine and that no matter what software you put in it, that puts people into limp home mode when it detects knocking.
That’s not a solution to the defect here. That’s a bandaid that allows Hyundai and Kia consumers to continue experience in this nightmare of engine failure over time. So, so far, you know, when it comes to defect petition in this area, Nitsa has, I guess, a mixed track record. You know, they did open the fire investigation and there have been a number of other Hyundai Kia fires not even related to this engine condition that have, that have gone on there.
But in this circumstance, you know, th this petition’s been sitting there now for, you know, some time, not as long as some nitsa petitions sit around. But it’s, you know, it’s, this is an issue that’s been going on for many years and, you know, the longer net it takes to fix it, the more chance there is that someone’s going to experience this condition stall and be in a crash or, or be severely injured or die.
So it’s kind of pressing in some ways, right? I mean, we don’t always see the. You know, and going back to some of the Tesla issues, we don’t always see the urgency from the agency that, that we think we should and, and when their life and death issues at stake, particularly when, you know, the defect is so well proven out by, you know, all the complaints and all the data that you’ve submitted to the agency over the, over the, the past year or so.
So that’s, that’s one part. We didn’t get into a whole other part on early warning reporting which, which you, something you’ve also looked at and something we’ve long looked at with involving nhtsa basically in 2000, 2001 when the tread act was, was passed by Congress in response to the Ford Firestone rollover problems.
Manufacturers were required to start reporting a lot of things to nitsa deaths and injuries, warranty, and other information property damage. Depending on the size of the manufacturer and a lot of other factors that was required to be started, I believe manufacturers started reporting around 2003.
And we have over the years found a number of discrepancies in reporting. Some of that resulted in some really large fines being levied against manufacturers like Honda and even I think Ferrari and a couple others back in the, I think around the 2000 tens, somewhere in that era, if my memory serves me right.
But you have pointed out that there are are situations here where perhaps Hyundai and Kia should be reporting incidents to the early warning reporting and, and haven’t been because they are essentially shifting the blame in this situation onto other parties other than themselves when these drain plugs go missing.
Joanna L Johnson: Indeed. Indeed. That’s a really good recap on early warning reporting. Yeah. I, I went into the regs to try to see how they were getting around reporting these instances they’re, they’re, we have are aware of hundreds. I’ve got 137 cases now. It’s combined consumer complaints to nitsa professionals in the industry and consumer forums.
But we are aware of probably thousands because I’ve talked to the insurance companies and one of the insurance companies is trying to, trying to get clearance to give me their data.
Michael: Okay. It’s always hard. .
Joanna L Johnson: Yeah, it’s very hard. They want to because they are tired of paying these, they’re tired of paying and,
Michael: and they’ve come out strongly against Hyundai and Key obviously on the , the what is it, the immobilize issue, issue and theft where they stopped ensuring them.
I wish they’d done something similar with when they started seeing so many fires, because that was really the, with on the Hyundai Kia fire issue, the insurance companies were really the people who were receiving the most complaints because everyone whose car catches on fire is reporting it to insurance.
They’re not reporting it to Kia and Hyundai and they’re not reporting it to Nitsa every time. But you can be sure they’re reporting it to
Joanna L Johnson: insurance. Exactly. You know, by the, just by the way, I keep waiting for the case where the Hyundai, Hyundai Kia is stolen and then at the police are chasing em. It’s stalls out on the highway.
Yeah. The oil drains out the bottom. It stall
Michael: the bottoms. Immobilize her, built in. Right. . .
Anthony: I think when I say kids in my neighborhood steal those cars, maybe that’s what’s happening is they’re just, we’re abandoning it. Car stalled out. Let’s steal those.
Joanna L Johnson: They were gonna be, they were gonna be customers in an alley going kid, steal my car.
please, please steal my car. I’ll you 50 bucks, please take this, just steal my car and
Anthony: drive it into car. Endorsing that as a way to get rid of your
Michael: home. We’re not, we want everybody to get that recall. Not even, we’re joking.
Joanna L Johnson: We are, we’re officially joking about that. But the, but the,
Anthony: the early warning, the video as not as Fred is nodding his head saying, yes, do it, do
No, no, no.
Fred: I’m, I’m just wondering, I’m just wondering how much you have to pay somebody to steal your Kia .
Anthony: I mean, given the kids are like 14 years old, I don’t know, a pack of gum and a playboy. I’m
Fred: sticking 20 bucks. Maybe I
Anthony: we, we’ve spent a little over an hour. I think we should we should wrap up. There’s a lot of stuff I know we wanted to get to today, but I, I, you know, how long can we hold listeners on for? So,
Michael: well, you know, we can always do part two when Nitsa fixes this whole problem. I think we’re definitely
Anthony: having you come back for a part two.
Happy to it. We, we’ve ganged up a lot on Kia Hyundai. Today we’re gonna put a link to an amazing video that happened out in California where it’s a Kia going down the road. Someone’s truck, the tire pops off, explodes, goes right in front of this car, and this car launches into the air. It goes at least it looks like 10 feet in the air.
And Oh, yeah. And it flipped around, landed and had right on its top.
Michael: It landed right on its top. It was amazing. And the amazing that person wouldn’t have survived 20 years ago without some of the roof crush. And, and they certainly wouldn’t have survived without a seatbelt on. But that,
Anthony: and the, and the card never stalled.
Michael: But that was an amazing video because it just shows you how little time a driver or an autonomous vehicle might have, you know, might have to respond to something like that. I mean, there is no avoiding some crashes. And that’s a good example of it. When a tire pops off right in front of your car, I mean, , nothing you can do.
That was some impeccable timing though, by those drivers.
Anthony: Yeah. Well, hey Joanna, thank you so much for being our guest today. This was, yeah, thank you. Thank you. Incredible.
Joanna L Johnson: Thanks for having
Anthony: me. So hey listeners, we’ll be back next week. We’ll have some recall roundup Fred. We’ll do more deep dives on our AV consumer Bill of Rights.
And whatever , you know, we’ll update de you on whatever GM cruise crashes into next . So thanks for joining us. Bye. Thank
Joanna L Johnson: Bye-bye. Bye bye.